– M A Moid

Is higher education possible through Urdu’ is a recurring question. What is your opinion?

Your question expresses the emotions of those who believe that higher education is not possible through vernaculars. History shows us that whenever this question was raised Urdu has not disappointed its fans whether it is Fort William College, Dilli College, Jamia Osmania or MANUU. The purpose of Fort William College was to train the British administrators and not to serve Urdu, but in spite of that it translated books in five or six disciplines like history, geography, law, administration etc. When Dilli College was established the task before it was to provide modern education to Indians through Urdu. Earlier the Vernacular Society was formed and Lord Macaulay was its important member who said that we need to create Indian babus through new disciplines. Macaulay’s intention might be bad but the Delli College translated nearly 120 books on 57 topics. These books were translated into that same language Urdu about which many still have doubts.

In this aspect Hyderabad was special as Madrasa-e- Fakhriya, Jamia Osmania and Manuu were established here. Madrasa-e-Fakhriya was unique because it was a personal project of Nawab Fakhrul Mulk, only science books on various topics were translated by it in to Urdu and it also established a planetarium to supplement astronomy. Jamia Osmania continued this trend and proved that if there is a will then any vernacular can become capable of dealing with modern sciences. Professor Late Syed Sirajuddin (Head of Department English, OU) had said about OU that ‘Knowledge was trapped in unfamiliar languages until OU liberated it, made it easy and popular’. He also said that ‘an important contribution of Jamia Osmania is that it created a middle class in Hyderabad society’.

You were associated with Central Indian Institute of Languages (CIIL) Mysore for a long time. What was the agenda of CIIL vis-à-vis Indian languages? What kind of research takes place there?

It was a coincidence that I got associated with CIIL through a project. The directorate of text books of Karnataka Government wanted to prepare text books for 9th standard with the help of CIIL. I was part of the committee that was in charge of this task. This brought me into contract with CIIL.

CIIL works under ministry of MHRD and creates programs for the development of Indian Languages, for example, how to teach languages, understanding linguistic properties of languages, preparation of primers, text books of different levels with linguistic approach, dictionaries, thesaurus and reference books, determining the areas of languages through practical surveys and conduct various other surveys. It has converted many Indian dialects into languages by providing Devanagari script.

I was associated with CIIL for 10 years and learnt the methods of teaching languages and understood its nature. It enriched me as a teacher for which I am thankful to CIIL in general and its Research Officer Dr. Shyamala Kumari in particular.

Regarding Urdu CIIL produced new text books on request from state governments, audio cassettes as teaching aid, poems, riddles, language games for children etc.

You are teaching Urdu to IAS and IPS trainees, why they are interested in Urdu, what are your experiences of teaching them?

It was a coincidence that my friend and colleague Dr. Fazlur Rahman suggested my name to National Police Academy (NPA) to teach the IPS officers from Jammu cadre. The following year the Marri Chenna Reddy Human Development Institute got my name from NPA to teach IAS trainees. Likewise I got an opportunity to teach both type of officers. I found that in NPA there are two types of Urdu learners. The first belongs to that group that has been posted in Jammu and Kashmir where administrative language is Urdu. The second group wanted to learn out of interest and liking for Urdu.

The IAS trainees want to learn Urdu because of its cultural significance and especially because of their fondness for Urdu poetry. As a teacher it was a challenge for two reasons. First of all these trainees were highly educated and cannot be treated as college or university students and secondly they are influenced by the aesthetic charm and cultural value of Urdu. I have to take into the account these two factors in teaching them and providing course material. In these two institutions only 20 – 25 classes of forty minutes each were allotted. In such a short time I have to teach a language which is an enormous challenge. Therefore I had to keep to the limited time provided, assess the need and temperament of learner and the pros and cons of Urdu script in view, and design/prepare the course material, pedagogy and methodology of teaching. The CIIL experiences came handy and helped me in my tasks and the students as well. I have collected and published my course material in a book form entitled ‘Learn Urdu’.

Your book on the teaching of Urdu language has become popular with the non Urdu speakers. What is your view of the challenges of teaching Urdu to the present generation?

My book ‘Learn Urdu’ is not only the result of my experience and knowledge that I gained while teaching IPS and IAS officers but also its reward. Of course Urdu can be taught in a short duration through this book. I have divided this book into 12 units and 24 lessons, each deal with a linguistic characteristic or problem. One method used for teaching the sentences was with the help of a few alphabets through writing processes. The learners feel that from the first lesson itself he is writing—this method was not preferred traditionally. Secondly the fact that the students are cognate learners—who already knew the language but cannot read and write was also taken into account. Thirdly all the four skills of listening, speaking, writing, and reading were simultaneously used. To help in correct pronunciation Hindi and English were used. The exercises were made interesting.

You have designed a short course on appreciating gazals. Who are your students and why this program is liked. What you do in these classes?

During a workshop for the Urdu teachers of an NGO (Pratham), its Chairman Mr. Chowhan during an informal talk told me that he is fond of listening to gazals but feels that he is not able to understand the meaning completely. ‘ If somebody designs a course of how to understand and enjoy gazals, I would like to take it’. He also said that he did not have time to learn Urdu and without learning it he want to understand gazals.

This idea motivated me and I prepared a spoken level course as ‘Appreciation of Urdu gazals’, liked and approved by my university, MANUU. I am particularly obliged to Mr Mohammed Miyan, the Vice Chancellor for appreciating and supporting this innovative course.

It is a fact that gazals, especially the classical ones, through their emotions sensibility and meaning impress listeners. Many lovers of gazals are those who have heard gazals from the singers. It is important to introduce the sensibility and affect of gazals to them. Keeping in view all these things I prepared the course which is becoming popular in the Urdu and non Urdu speakers and many of the latter are now getting attracted to Urdu.

Children’s literature in Urdu is also your interest area and you have made some innovations in it. What is the nature of books for children in Urdu?

My relation with children literature is in two capacities-as a teacher and as a creator. My association with CIIL helped me in writing for children in a scientific way. In CIIL we worked for on programmes to prepare language games, poems, proverbs etc and in individual projects to prepare text books and linguistics exercises according to the interest and nature of children. CIIL designed five programmes for children and made audio cassettes and teaching aid for it.

The difference between the past and today regarding the children’s literature is that earlier even the major writers and poets used to write for children. Krishan Chandar, Zafar Payami and Siraj Anwar were well known in prose. In poetry Hamid ullah Afsar, Ismael Meerthi, Shafiuddin Nayar, Raja Mehdi Ali Khan etc were popular. But today’s major writers of Urdu are not interested in writing for children. The genre of comics is completely absent in Urdu. Only Gulzar Saab presented the story of Mowgli in a book for his daughter. The reason for this gap is that our writers and artists are not ready to take it up, nor is anybody interested in investing in such projects. Let me say that we Urdu walas are not serious about using modern sources of communication for language and literature. How the children can develop reading habits.

I produced a book ‘Khel Kahawat’(Games and Proverbs) in Urdu for children. Actually it was inspired from a CIIL project, “India through proverbs” in which the proverbs were visualized. I used the same technique with their permission to teach children through this book. This is the only book in my publications that was sold out. What I want to say is that if the books are prepared according to the need and disposition of the student in an interesting way and with good quality material, the teaching and learning will be joyful and then it will sell. Today many facilities are available; if books cannot be published, CDs can be made and sold which is must cheaper.

You belong to Gulbarga town, a place that has made important contributions to the Deccani. Tell us more about Gulbarga’s significance for the Deccani. What are the kinds of research being done on Deccani.

The areas I belong to i.e., Gulbarga and Bidar played an important role in Deccani literature. The first elegy ‘Kadamrao Padamrao’ was written in Bidar. Miraj-ul-Aashiqeen is attributed to Saint Hazarath Khaja Banda Nawaz of Gulbarga and is recognized as the first prose specimen of Deccani literature. These cities were the capitals of the Bahmani kingdom. It was the early phase; the kings were busy in consolidating the kingdom instead of giving attention to literature and poetry. The progress in Deccani literature happened due to religious personalities and non-courtier artists. When Bahmani kingdom broke into five kingdoms, the two biggest of them i.e Adil Shahi and Qutub Shahi kingdoms nurtured literature and arts. The North Indians take pride that Urdu was nurtured in the areas of Ganga and Jamuna; we Deccanis are proud that we used this language not only for literature and poetry but also for knowledge and skills.

Thus the first prose, poetry quatrains and elegies were written in Deccan. Our literary historians extended the history of Urdu by 150-200 years by the discovery of Deccani literature. In this regard the role of Hyderabad and OU cannot be ignored. But sadly the scholars of Deccani are declining in dedication and numbers and except one or two nobody seem to be interested. The reason for lack of research on Deccani is lack of interest in old books and manuscripts. The emergence of new disciplines and demands created interest in the new books. I feel still there are possibilities of working on Deccani from new perspectives.

There are some claims that Deccani will always remain disadvantaged as a spoken language under the shadow of North Indian Urdu. What is the truth behind such claims? What can be done about Deccani to bring it out of its existing predicament?

The history of Deccani languages is nearly six hundred years old. In the South it progressed because of the works and efforts of Mohiuddin Quadri Zore, Abdul Haq, Abdul Qader Sarwari, Rafia Sultana,Syeda Jafar, Ghulam Omer Khan,Ashraf Rafi, Naseemuddin Farees, Habeeb Nisar etc., but in North India Deccani literature is not part of the syllabus. It is because of its difficult pronunciation, reading and comprehension. These difficulties could be overcome through new means of communication for example cassettes can be made about the correct reading of different texts. Audio and video material about the discussion on Deccani can be made to popularize it. It is strange and sad that today Deccani language is used only for humor and comedy whereas earlier high literature was created in it. We need to change our thinking and attitude. Also we need to defend it intellectually from the Hindi speakers and Hindi intelligentsia, particularly from Hindi teachers, critiques, and writers who want to claim it as Hindi because of the presence of Prakrit and Bhasha words in it.

Now Telangana State is formed. A future has to be made for Telangana Telugu and Deccani. How both languages can contribute in each other’s development?

When we look at the history of Deccan two things are apparent. One is that area which came under the influence of Urdu in the past and another that did not. Telangana belong to the earlier group.

Alluddin Hasan, the founder of Bahmani kingdom, was the first one to coin and use the term Deccani as a particular identity. He used it as a political strategy to fight the domination of Tughlak family of North India. He also used it to promote a common cultural and civilizational value since he found a close and special culture affinity among different groups of this region.

Apart from this the Sufi saints used the Hindu characters to propagate Islam. Shams ul Ishaq Meeran Ji coined the term Krishan Mohammed, in the elegy ‘Behram and Hasan Banu’; gopis’ narration were used; Nusrati used Vishnu Chakra; and Hazarath Ameenuddin Aala used the five element and 25 guna philosophy of Vedanta in Sufism. In Islamic Sufism only 4 elements are mentioned but the fifth one of space, void or shunya was adopted from Indian philosophy. All this was cultural give and take and found especially in those areas which were under the Muslim rule.

Now if we look at Telangana movement and its leaders statements, what becomes clear is that Deccani and Urdu played an important role in the formation of its nature. The Telangana people now want to retrieve it. It is the demand for harmonious existence that Telangana Telugu and Deccani should contribute in the progress of the state through mutual and close interaction.

 

The interview was conducted in Urdu on 30 & 31 October 2014 by M.A. Moid and translated by him into English.
Khalid Sayeed teaches at MANUU. He is also the Director of Centre for Urdu Language, Literature and Culture. (9849359660)